There have been some posts about this,one thing could be the paticulate filter.Have a trawl through some previous posts,you might find something there.
CVT Hesitation
I've owned an '04 TDCi CVT auto since July 07; it'scurently done 24000 miles, full main dealer history.
Ever since I first got it, it has has a hesitation problem. You'll be puling away froma standstilland as the car gets up to about walking pace, the power drops and then comes back. This is sometimes accompanied bya big cloud of blacksmoke.
The car's been back to the main dealer half a dozen times now, who has so far tried the following:
Engine software update
New EGR valve
PCM update
Revised wiring
All to no avail. The problem is cured temporarily each time the garage looks at it, but the problem keeps coming back, gradually gettign worse. It lasts about 3 months before I can't stand it any more.
In the last couple of weeksthe problem has got so bad there is rough running for a few seconds after the power cuts back in.
A possibly related problem is two weeks ago on a dual carriageway the power cut out at 80mph and the speed reduced to 50 regardless of what I did. I stopped the engine in a layby - restarted and the car drove normally ( - hesitating !).
For the first year the car was on an aftermarket warranty, but that's expired. Taking out a new warranty is tricky as all the policies I've looked at exclude any pre-existing problem.
I've driven Fords for 17 years with very few problems, but this one's getting me fed up.
Out of desperation - has anyone had this problem and had it cured ?
Ever since I first got it, it has has a hesitation problem. You'll be puling away froma standstilland as the car gets up to about walking pace, the power drops and then comes back. This is sometimes accompanied bya big cloud of blacksmoke.
The car's been back to the main dealer half a dozen times now, who has so far tried the following:
Engine software update
New EGR valve
PCM update
Revised wiring
All to no avail. The problem is cured temporarily each time the garage looks at it, but the problem keeps coming back, gradually gettign worse. It lasts about 3 months before I can't stand it any more.
In the last couple of weeksthe problem has got so bad there is rough running for a few seconds after the power cuts back in.
A possibly related problem is two weeks ago on a dual carriageway the power cut out at 80mph and the speed reduced to 50 regardless of what I did. I stopped the engine in a layby - restarted and the car drove normally ( - hesitating !).
For the first year the car was on an aftermarket warranty, but that's expired. Taking out a new warranty is tricky as all the policies I've looked at exclude any pre-existing problem.
I've driven Fords for 17 years with very few problems, but this one's getting me fed up.
Out of desperation - has anyone had this problem and had it cured ?
1 - 20 of 43 Posts
Mickey,
A trawl through posts on this and other forums did reveal others with the problem, but no-onereporting a cure that had lasted more than a couple of weeks.
Someone had had more work done than mine - including 3 replacement EGR valves and an air mass flow sensor - with no permanent cure. He got rid of the car. I don't want to do that.
A trawl through posts on this and other forums did reveal others with the problem, but no-onereporting a cure that had lasted more than a couple of weeks.
Someone had had more work done than mine - including 3 replacement EGR valves and an air mass flow sensor - with no permanent cure. He got rid of the car. I don't want to do that.
Once it's hesitated at walking pace does it then do it again at higher road speed and if it does is the engine speed the same
In step change auto boxes i would have suggested a sensor that tells the box when to change up was giving a spurrious signal
In step change auto boxes i would have suggested a sensor that tells the box when to change up was giving a spurrious signal
try reading
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=56705
I realise it is a petrol fiesta but you never know
The other one we had a fault with our petrol focus was the speed signal that drove the speedo also had an effect on the fueling so when it lost the speed signal it lost the fuel mapping and stalled the next time it went to idle but then resterted
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=56705
I realise it is a petrol fiesta but you never know
The other one we had a fault with our petrol focus was the speed signal that drove the speedo also had an effect on the fueling so when it lost the speed signal it lost the fuel mapping and stalled the next time it went to idle but then resterted
I found this
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=687
which includes
On early (2004 build) 1.6TDCI CVTs the transmission and the ECU sometimes mismatch momentarily at around 1,600 - 2,000rpm
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=687
which includes
On early (2004 build) 1.6TDCI CVTs the transmission and the ECU sometimes mismatch momentarily at around 1,600 - 2,000rpm
Richard,
I'd looked at that Honest John post before I bought the car.
The faultsthat I and others are suffering I'd describe as a lot more than"transmission and ECU mismatch momentarily".
The fault is most noticeable on pullaway, but I do also get the power coming and going slightly under light acceleration, from about 30-50mph.
The CVT gearbox design means the revs are almost always in the range 1700-2000.
If I can't get this problem fixed,at leastone of the following will happen:
* I or my wife have an accident ata roundabout due to a slow pull away -we've already had several near misses and got shouted at by van drivers. Ifwe wait for a big gap -the bloke behind getsannoyed. Ifwe go for a small gap,the blokewe go in front of gets annoyed. A no-win situation.
*We get shouted at or worse from giving van man behinda face full of diesel smoke
* the car conks out completely - leaving me or my wife stranded
* The car will constantly be in the garage having new EGR valves fitted and the insides of the engine being de-coked - at great expense if I can't get some sort of compensation from Ford.
One possible cause not yet eliminated in my mind is the problem mentioned in Honest John's review of a crackedintercooler pipe on the front of the engine that has caused problems on early 1.6TDCi's. A bracket that holds it on is a poor design and can crack, letting air in and causing hesitation.The fix is a pipe of revised design. However, this fault normally shows itself through oil stainng on the outside of the pipe - and I can't see any on my car.
The car is in the main dealer right now being looked at again. It will be interestign to see what they want to do next. There are so many possible causes it's not an easy thing to try and fix.
I'd looked at that Honest John post before I bought the car.
The faultsthat I and others are suffering I'd describe as a lot more than"transmission and ECU mismatch momentarily".
The fault is most noticeable on pullaway, but I do also get the power coming and going slightly under light acceleration, from about 30-50mph.
The CVT gearbox design means the revs are almost always in the range 1700-2000.
If I can't get this problem fixed,at leastone of the following will happen:
* I or my wife have an accident ata roundabout due to a slow pull away -we've already had several near misses and got shouted at by van drivers. Ifwe wait for a big gap -the bloke behind getsannoyed. Ifwe go for a small gap,the blokewe go in front of gets annoyed. A no-win situation.
*We get shouted at or worse from giving van man behinda face full of diesel smoke
* the car conks out completely - leaving me or my wife stranded
* The car will constantly be in the garage having new EGR valves fitted and the insides of the engine being de-coked - at great expense if I can't get some sort of compensation from Ford.
One possible cause not yet eliminated in my mind is the problem mentioned in Honest John's review of a crackedintercooler pipe on the front of the engine that has caused problems on early 1.6TDCi's. A bracket that holds it on is a poor design and can crack, letting air in and causing hesitation.The fix is a pipe of revised design. However, this fault normally shows itself through oil stainng on the outside of the pipe - and I can't see any on my car.
The car is in the main dealer right now being looked at again. It will be interestign to see what they want to do next. There are so many possible causes it's not an easy thing to try and fix.
I've done a bit more digging on everyones behalf
Apparently the CVT auto box is supplied by ZF. Given that Ford don't want to help with info i found the UK site for ZF which is
http://www.zf-group.co.uk/car.htm
Apparently the CVT auto box is supplied by ZF. Given that Ford don't want to help with info i found the UK site for ZF which is
http://www.zf-group.co.uk/car.htm
OK,
Further work done by main dealer as follows:
"Cleaned MAF sensor, replaced crankcase breather hose with revised one, cleared codes". Cost £180+
Car is running great - for now - like it's done the last 6 times it was looked at.
I managed to get the some of the paperwork the technician used. Looks like PCM Error code P0238was logged- "Turbo/Super Charger Boost Sensor A Circuit High".
The action taken was in response to SSM 18530:
SOME NEW FOCUS OR C-MAX EQUIPPED WITH 1.6 TDCI BUILT BETWEEN JULY 2004 AND JAN
2005, MAY EXHIBIT THE FOLLOWING DRIVEABILITY ISSUES:
1.MIL ON DTC P0404/P1412 (EGR) REDUCED POWER. 2. MIL ON DTC P0234 TURBO
OVERBOOST REDUCED POWER. 3. MIL ON DTC P0238 TURBO BOOST SENSOR VOLTAGE UPPER LIMIT REDUCED POWER. 4. RUN DOWN ROUGHNESS. ALSO REDUCES OIL BACKFLOW IN AIR INTAKE SYSTEM IN COMBINATION WITH SSM 18120 (DO NOT REPLACE CCV HOSE IF VEHICLE BUILT AFTER JUNE 04 "4K")......etc.
I don't know what SSM 18120 is, but it looks like replacing the CrankCase Ventilation Hose (CCV) is part of it. If anyone's got access to ETIS, I'd be interested to know what it says. I'd also like to know if "MIL" means "(engine) Management Indicator Light)" - 'cos Ihaven't had any warning messages.
"4k" relates to the chassis number manufacturing date. My car is "4k" - right on the limit of where the SSM is saying "don't change the CCV hose for a revised one"!
Like I said in my previous post, there's so many possibilities - who knows whether this'll fix it. I'll keep you posted on what happens.
C-Maxxer
Further work done by main dealer as follows:
"Cleaned MAF sensor, replaced crankcase breather hose with revised one, cleared codes". Cost £180+
Car is running great - for now - like it's done the last 6 times it was looked at.
I managed to get the some of the paperwork the technician used. Looks like PCM Error code P0238was logged- "Turbo/Super Charger Boost Sensor A Circuit High".
The action taken was in response to SSM 18530:
SOME NEW FOCUS OR C-MAX EQUIPPED WITH 1.6 TDCI BUILT BETWEEN JULY 2004 AND JAN
2005, MAY EXHIBIT THE FOLLOWING DRIVEABILITY ISSUES:
1.MIL ON DTC P0404/P1412 (EGR) REDUCED POWER. 2. MIL ON DTC P0234 TURBO
OVERBOOST REDUCED POWER. 3. MIL ON DTC P0238 TURBO BOOST SENSOR VOLTAGE UPPER LIMIT REDUCED POWER. 4. RUN DOWN ROUGHNESS. ALSO REDUCES OIL BACKFLOW IN AIR INTAKE SYSTEM IN COMBINATION WITH SSM 18120 (DO NOT REPLACE CCV HOSE IF VEHICLE BUILT AFTER JUNE 04 "4K")......etc.
I don't know what SSM 18120 is, but it looks like replacing the CrankCase Ventilation Hose (CCV) is part of it. If anyone's got access to ETIS, I'd be interested to know what it says. I'd also like to know if "MIL" means "(engine) Management Indicator Light)" - 'cos Ihaven't had any warning messages.
"4k" relates to the chassis number manufacturing date. My car is "4k" - right on the limit of where the SSM is saying "don't change the CCV hose for a revised one"!
Like I said in my previous post, there's so many possibilities - who knows whether this'll fix it. I'll keep you posted on what happens.
C-Maxxer
I found these as well
SSM 5310
FOCUS AND C-MAX 1.6 TDCI - LOSS OF POWER
SOME NEW FOCUS OR C-MAX EQUIPPED WITH 1.6 TDCI BUILT BETWEEN JUNE 2003 AND JAN
2005, MAY EXHIBIT THE FOLLOWING DRIVEABILITY ISSUES:
1.MIL ON DTC P0404/P1412 (EGR) REDUCED POWER.
2. MIL ON DTC P0234 TURBO OVERBOOST REDUCED POWER.
3. MIL ON DTC P0238 TURBO BOOST SENSOR VOLTAGE UPPER LIMIT REDUCED POWER.
4. RUN DOWN ROUGHNESS. ALSO REDUCES OIL BACKFLOW IN AIR INTAKE SYSTEM IN COMBINATION WITH SSM 18120.
5. MIL ON DTC P0116 ECT REDUCED POWER.IN CASE OF THESE CONCERNS, A REVISED PCM CALIBRATION IS NEEDS TO BE INSTALLED. THIS NEW LEVEL CALIBRATION WILL BECOME AVAILABLE ON WDS CD B41.
REVISED PCM NO: 3M51-12A650-MH; 4M51-12A650-NF;-KG
I know thisn;t 18120 but the content is very close
SSM 18122
Desc: Noticeable flat spot in first gear around 1700rpm (TDCi engines) when pulling away from standstill.
Fix: ECU Firmware update
SSM 5310
FOCUS AND C-MAX 1.6 TDCI - LOSS OF POWER
SOME NEW FOCUS OR C-MAX EQUIPPED WITH 1.6 TDCI BUILT BETWEEN JUNE 2003 AND JAN
2005, MAY EXHIBIT THE FOLLOWING DRIVEABILITY ISSUES:
1.MIL ON DTC P0404/P1412 (EGR) REDUCED POWER.
2. MIL ON DTC P0234 TURBO OVERBOOST REDUCED POWER.
3. MIL ON DTC P0238 TURBO BOOST SENSOR VOLTAGE UPPER LIMIT REDUCED POWER.
4. RUN DOWN ROUGHNESS. ALSO REDUCES OIL BACKFLOW IN AIR INTAKE SYSTEM IN COMBINATION WITH SSM 18120.
5. MIL ON DTC P0116 ECT REDUCED POWER.IN CASE OF THESE CONCERNS, A REVISED PCM CALIBRATION IS NEEDS TO BE INSTALLED. THIS NEW LEVEL CALIBRATION WILL BECOME AVAILABLE ON WDS CD B41.
REVISED PCM NO: 3M51-12A650-MH; 4M51-12A650-NF;-KG
I know thisn;t 18120 but the content is very close
SSM 18122
Desc: Noticeable flat spot in first gear around 1700rpm (TDCi engines) when pulling away from standstill.
Fix: ECU Firmware update
My wife went out in the car last night. Accelerating from traffic lights up a slight incline - big hesitation, big cloud of black smoke, car lacks power for a few seconds and gradually recovers. I went out and it did the same thing to me - every time in the same circumstances. Hesitation pulling away on the flat wasn't there when Idrove homefrom the garage - but on my test run it was there again - not too bad yet, but there and it seems to be getting worse.
My theory iscleaning the MAF sensor temporarily cured the problem and that the CCV hose is now the wrong part. Who knows.
I'm going back - fed up - to the dealer on monday so the service manager can check what he thinks.
My theory iscleaning the MAF sensor temporarily cured the problem and that the CCV hose is now the wrong part. Who knows.
I'm going back - fed up - to the dealer on monday so the service manager can check what he thinks.
Has the firmware for the ECU been updated eithe recently or previously - see my previous post with the code number
I think the MAF is based on the "hot wire" principle. If it were the cleaning that cured the problem then when it was dirty it would be wrong all the time and either it would be too lean or too rich all the time
I think the MAF is based on the "hot wire" principle. If it were the cleaning that cured the problem then when it was dirty it would be wrong all the time and either it would be too lean or too rich all the time
ECU has been updated at least once.
PCM upgrade has also been done -
Something the dealer is doing is temporarily making things better.I'll mention to the service manager on Monday. I have wondered before if they've been disconnecting the battery or otherwise resetting the electronics such that the car has to re-learn its settings. If this were the case it may be that it's re-learning problem settings after a day or two.
PCM upgrade has also been done -
Something the dealer is doing is temporarily making things better.I'll mention to the service manager on Monday. I have wondered before if they've been disconnecting the battery or otherwise resetting the electronics such that the car has to re-learn its settings. If this were the case it may be that it's re-learning problem settings after a day or two.
I think you need to make a point of getting the service manager to speak to Ford Direct because something isn't working or they are doing something not quite right on the software upgrades, If they are doing the updates that is
Does anyone know if the software shows what updates have been done as do normal computer updates?
Does anyone know if the software shows what updates have been done as do normal computer updates?
Technician came out in the car with me to observe the problem.
They've got a manual car the same age with similar faults in for repair at the moment. Once they've fixed that one and maybe learnt something relevant they're going to have another go at mine. First step will be to monitor the sensor readings as the car is running rather than fault codes. I wasn't aware they could do that.
The next repair will beattempt number 7 since August last year. I'll keep you posted.
They've got a manual car the same age with similar faults in for repair at the moment. Once they've fixed that one and maybe learnt something relevant they're going to have another go at mine. First step will be to monitor the sensor readings as the car is running rather than fault codes. I wasn't aware they could do that.
The next repair will beattempt number 7 since August last year. I'll keep you posted.
If a manual g/box vehicle has the same faults then it has to be engine rather than the CVT box which is a start
Waited two weeks for a call from the technician - nothing
Rang dealer "we haven't fixed the other car yet sir"
Me "The car is smoking to an unacceptable degree I want you to look at it soon."
Dealer "OK, bring car in"
Car booked in and kept for the day. No call.
I rang them. "Car is hesitating but no fault logged. We'll keep the car overnight"
Next day, I'm not happy they're taking me seriously. I rang Ford Customer service. They contacted dealer to ask what's going on.
No call from dealer. I rang them at 5.15pm. "We spoke to Ford Technical who say the hesitation is a characteristic of the car - there's no fix."
I was not a happy bunny, but got the car back.
Customer Service rang back this morning to repeat what dealer had said.
Me : "Not good enough. I'm going to get stopped by the Police or into a road rage incident because of the clouds of black smoke"
Customer Service " Take it to another dealer for a second opinion"
Me "OK" - booked in on Wednesday for a test drive. I'll try and get the foreman to follow me so he can see how much smoke there is. I've written to Ford Customer Service. I'm also going to try to video the car being followed to show how much smoke there is.
Incidentally, a bloke from work happened to be behind me as I pulled away from a motorway junction over the weekend. He didn't know I was in front of him at the time. There was so much smoke the bloke's wife in the passenger seat commented "look at the amount of muck comingout of that car" - which makes me think it's not just my imagination.
Grrr......
Rang dealer "we haven't fixed the other car yet sir"
Me "The car is smoking to an unacceptable degree I want you to look at it soon."
Dealer "OK, bring car in"
Car booked in and kept for the day. No call.
I rang them. "Car is hesitating but no fault logged. We'll keep the car overnight"
Next day, I'm not happy they're taking me seriously. I rang Ford Customer service. They contacted dealer to ask what's going on.
No call from dealer. I rang them at 5.15pm. "We spoke to Ford Technical who say the hesitation is a characteristic of the car - there's no fix."
I was not a happy bunny, but got the car back.
Customer Service rang back this morning to repeat what dealer had said.
Me : "Not good enough. I'm going to get stopped by the Police or into a road rage incident because of the clouds of black smoke"
Customer Service " Take it to another dealer for a second opinion"
Me "OK" - booked in on Wednesday for a test drive. I'll try and get the foreman to follow me so he can see how much smoke there is. I've written to Ford Customer Service. I'm also going to try to video the car being followed to show how much smoke there is.
Incidentally, a bloke from work happened to be behind me as I pulled away from a motorway junction over the weekend. He didn't know I was in front of him at the time. There was so much smoke the bloke's wife in the passenger seat commented "look at the amount of muck comingout of that car" - which makes me think it's not just my imagination.
Grrr......
I hope I can't believe there is no fix for such
More likely there is no economic fix that Ford want to commit to
Have you any independant diesel specialists near you. Go in and just ask if they'd be prepared togive you an opinion on buying a vehicle like yours USED (you can be as exact in the detail as you like) and just see if they shrink back in horror at the thought
I did find these in Google
http://www.touchlocal.com/nat/c-692-t-8290-Diesel+Engineering-Eastleigh
The Mitchell Diesel in Romsey are I think part of the group that are the agents for Allison Automatic transmission so might just know a thing or two arout diesel and auto boxes
More likely there is no economic fix that Ford want to commit to
Have you any independant diesel specialists near you. Go in and just ask if they'd be prepared togive you an opinion on buying a vehicle like yours USED (you can be as exact in the detail as you like) and just see if they shrink back in horror at the thought
I did find these in Google
http://www.touchlocal.com/nat/c-692-t-8290-Diesel+Engineering-Eastleigh
The Mitchell Diesel in Romsey are I think part of the group that are the agents for Allison Automatic transmission so might just know a thing or two arout diesel and auto boxes
Richard,
Thanks for the information. Part of the problem is the engine / gearbox combination is so rare. The diesel auto was only available for about 12 months and was not a great seller.
I'm suspicious as to the reason they stopped producing them. Diesel specialists are unlikely to have seen one before - the Ford dealers don't see many.
I did read a rumour that there were delays and possible quality control issues at the plant in theBatavia, Ohio, USA where the gearboxes were produced by ZF, which pushed the costs up to an uneconomic degree.
http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_zf_batavia_finally/
That may havemeant the R&D moneywas limited and they released a less than finished product.
One possibility is that there is a design fault, but there are so few cars about that Ford aren't willing to put resources intofinding a proper fix.
I'm trying to get Ford Tecnical to acknowledge the smoke problem and help the dealers fix it - As I've found out the dealersare not set up to deal withcomplicated issueswithout extra help.
Thanks for the information. Part of the problem is the engine / gearbox combination is so rare. The diesel auto was only available for about 12 months and was not a great seller.
I'm suspicious as to the reason they stopped producing them. Diesel specialists are unlikely to have seen one before - the Ford dealers don't see many.
I did read a rumour that there were delays and possible quality control issues at the plant in theBatavia, Ohio, USA where the gearboxes were produced by ZF, which pushed the costs up to an uneconomic degree.
http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_zf_batavia_finally/
That may havemeant the R&D moneywas limited and they released a less than finished product.
One possibility is that there is a design fault, but there are so few cars about that Ford aren't willing to put resources intofinding a proper fix.
I'm trying to get Ford Tecnical to acknowledge the smoke problem and help the dealers fix it - As I've found out the dealersare not set up to deal withcomplicated issueswithout extra help.
Went to dealer 2 at lunchtime - service foreman sat in the car with me andevery pullawayresulted in abig hesitation and big cloud of smoke. Fault acknowledged.
Driving back afterwards - car lost power on the motorway - luckily just before the exit for the first dealer. I was able to crawl to the dealers and keep the engine running whilst I got someone to come and have a look at it. Full throttle and the car would accelerate - just. Fault acknowledged. Restarted the engine and power restored. My guess is a stuck EGR valve for the power loss - hardly surprising with the amount ofsmoke coming out of the exhaust pipe.
Car booked in - yet again - to dealer 1 on Tuesday. Letter going to Ford technical tonight to say - it's broke - please help fix it.
Driving back afterwards - car lost power on the motorway - luckily just before the exit for the first dealer. I was able to crawl to the dealers and keep the engine running whilst I got someone to come and have a look at it. Full throttle and the car would accelerate - just. Fault acknowledged. Restarted the engine and power restored. My guess is a stuck EGR valve for the power loss - hardly surprising with the amount ofsmoke coming out of the exhaust pipe.
Car booked in - yet again - to dealer 1 on Tuesday. Letter going to Ford technical tonight to say - it's broke - please help fix it.
1 - 20 of 43 Posts
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